Cafe Chat Discussion

  • sconads
    sconads
    Posted on:
    16th Sep 2011 06:26pm

    Last Post 6th Jun 2012
    Replies     20

    Just not right

    why is it that if we were to go to another country we have to obey their rules and customs,and we get no help.But every other race can come to our country and make us change our history and culture,e.g stop xmas at schools etc.also our government looks after them better then our own.i beleive that is so wrong,we should look after our own first.

  • Bigfoot
    Bigfoot
    Posted on:
    22nd Sep 2011 09:09pm

    Bigfoot says: We have much too much PC here in Australia. We should make a start with enforcing a "No Burkha" rule as has France, unfortunately our "Pollies" are just too weak kneed. Wake up "Pollies" or Australia will become like England.

  • mysteron347
    mysteron347
    Posted on:
    22nd Sep 2011 11:49pm

    mysteron347 says: It's called "doublethink." You thought that was just in "1984" didn't you?

    WRONG! It's rife. For every stupid argument, there's an equally stupid and opposite counterargument. You can normally spot these because the counterproposers' only tactic (since they are unable to think for themselves) is to simply reverse whatever argument they oppose and repeat, repeat, repeat - endlessly and LOUDLY (and often with a government grant awarded "in the interests of free speech".)

  • Bob
    Bob
    Posted on:
    23rd Sep 2011 12:13pm

    Bob says: I agree - there is too much political correctness going on and we are foreigners in our own country. The average joe should take a stand and do the opposite to what the minority groups expect eg celebrate xmas in schools and sod the minority. I could go on and on about the situation but I won't. Just a final word - boat people (turn them back)

  • Viv
    Viv
    Posted on:
    23rd Sep 2011 08:39pm

    Bob says: I agree - there is too much political correctness going on and we are foreigners in our own country. The average joe should take a stand and do the opposite to what the minority groups expect eg...

    Viv says: I am a child of migrant atheists (they were Jewish until the Holocaust). We always celebrated Christmas so that I would not feel different from my friends and I have continued with that. But since there are so many cultures in our country now, why can't schools celebrate the festivals of other religions as well? If a subject called 'Comparative Cultures and Religions' was introduced in early high school there would be a lot less misunderstanding and a lot more friendship between those from different lands.

  • Bob
    Bob
    Posted on:
    23rd Sep 2011 10:40pm

    Viv says: I am a child of migrant atheists (they were Jewish until the Holocaust). We always celebrated Christmas so that I would not feel different from my friends and I have continued with that. But...

    Bob says: I agree Viv - we don't know enough about other religions and I think that is a sad thing, In my response to SCONADS I agreed with his point of view which was that our cuture and way of life was being usurped by minorities who want to maintain their old way of life. You do NOT fall into that category and I commend you for that, I do however stand by my earlier comments regarding boat people - send them back, they (and the do gooders who support them) are trying to hijack the system.

  • Viv
    Viv
    Posted on:
    23rd Sep 2011 08:51pm

    Bob says: I agree - there is too much political correctness going on and we are foreigners in our own country. The average joe should take a stand and do the opposite to what the minority groups expect eg...

    Viv says: Bob - boat people are desperately fleeing for their lives. Their governmet /community wants to kill/torture them because of their political persuasion/religion/ethnicity so it would obviously be pointless for them to try leaving their country by legal means. So why kick vulnerable people when they are down? Wouldn't a helping hand be more appropriate? Whatever happened to the Australian ideal of a fair go? My parents were forever grateful to the people smugglers who spirited them away from Nazi Germany. Their parents and many of their extended family were less fortunate and died at Auswisch.
    You and I are fortunate to live in a democracy where we are free to be different. It is not the fault of boat people that they were born into less fortunate circumstances.

  • errolsyd
    errolsyd
    Posted on:
    8th Oct 2011 08:44pm

    Viv says: Bob - boat people are desperately fleeing for their lives. Their governmet /community wants to kill/torture them because of their political persuasion/religion/ethnicity so it would obviously be...

    errolsyd says: Viv. Question? 1. Why if these "desperate" boaties are fleeing for their lives why are most of them single males? Leaving their family's behind.
    2. What parent would send their children on such a journey alone?
    3. Why destroy their identity papers and prolong their time in detention?
    4. How do you dare compare them to your parents who fled the nazi's????
    5. How about a fair go for our own people?
    6. How do you justify 1.4 mill for cigs for them.
    7. While we spend 1 billion plus on them our people suffer for lack of essentials?
    8. Why do you not open up your home and purse and support them?
    9. Why when we live in a democracy is it that if I speak my mind I am labeled a racist by fools like you???
    10. Why should we change our customs and way of life to suit them??

  • Viv
    Viv
    Posted on:
    11th Oct 2011 07:27pm

    errolsyd says: Viv. Question? 1. Why if these "desperate" boaties are fleeing for their lives why are most of them single males? Leaving their family's behind.
    2. What parent would send their children on...

    Viv says: errolsyd, here are answers to all of your questions, in order:

    1. People smuggling doesn't come cheap so a family may only be able to afford 1 or 2 fares even if they sell all/most of their possessions. In such cases parents naturally want to save their children before themselves if they face almost certain death by staying. If they have to choose between their children for financial reasons then the boys, from the eldest down, are always given preference. Sexism is even more entrenched in Asian and African cultures.

    2. (see 1 above). Because if by staying they face almost certain death at some stage, then sending them alone on a leaky boat to a foreign land would be the lesser of 2 evils. I know much of this from refugees to whom I have spoken directly, and also from a young friend whose parents illegally fled El Salvador on a boat when, after several threats, they returned home 1 day to find their house blown up and pieces of their children and extended family quite literally spread all over the street. They sold what was left of their belongings to fund both their fares. (My friend was born later, here). They have since been granted refugee status in Australia.

    3. If you are fleeing your country in secret then the last thing you want to carry with you is ID, in case you are intercepted along the way. Anyway, many of the societies involved here are composed largely of villages and are not sufficiently modern to have written ID.

    4. Because if your own government wants to kill/torture you it doesn't matter what their poliical grouping is called or what their reason is. Your choice is still the same - get out surreptitiously or wait around to be tortured/murdered. My own parents saw this connection and always gave generous support when they could to organisations who helped refugees.

    5. I've always supported a fair go for EVERYONE, Australian or otherwise.

    6. Forcing any addict to conquer their obsession cold turkey, especially one who has just fled persecution and may well have had close family murdered, is one hell of a big ask and would probably tip them over the edge into mental illness. I had one Australian friend who due to a truly awful childhood grew up addicted to heroin, nicotine, speed and alcohol in an effort to dull her painful memories. With professional help she eventually gave up the 2 illegal drugs but couldn't control her craving for the others. I personally detest the smell of cigarettes but having watched others struggle to give them up I recognise what a strong addiction it is (ask any current or ex-smoker if you don't believe me).

    7. I agree with you entirely on that one. Secure detention is THE most expensive way in which to accommodate them. If we let them live in the community we would save most of that. REMEMBER - they have committed no crime. International law recognises that a person fleeing their own government cannot apply from their homeland to enter another country for obvious reasons. Therefore it is NOT a crime to arrive without a visa or other papers (see 3 above) and declare yourself to be a refugee You only become an illegal entrant if you do not make yourself known asap to the government of your host country on arrival or if your claim for refugee status is later declared invalid.

    8 I have and I do.

    9. Because your comments make it obvious that a racist is what you are. Just as my comments make it obvious that I have a lot more empathy and compassion than you do. A democracy allows everyone to speak their mind, not just you. You only reveal yourself to be a fool if you justify your opinions with specious arguments rather than logical ones. I've given logical reasons for all of mine. Can you?

    10. Who said that we should? But our adoption since WW2 of many foreign foods and customs IN ADDITION to our own has enriched our society manyfold. When I was a child you couldn't buy pizza or a decent coffee anywhere, the only cheeses available were Cheddar and Tasty, and smallgoods were unheard of!


  • errolsyd
    errolsyd
    Posted on:
    12th Oct 2011 11:26pm

    Viv says: errolsyd, here are answers to all of your questions, in order:

    1. People smuggling doesn't come cheap so a family may only be able to afford 1 or 2 fares even if they sell all/most of...

    errolsyd says: This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules.

  • Viv
    Viv
    Posted on:
    13th Oct 2011 02:24am

    errolsyd says: This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules.

    Viv says: Ho hum errolsyd,- I have already answered most of your points in my earlier post but since you don't seem to have grasped much of the information I'll repeat it below where necessary.

    1. If you are genuinely unable to comprehend that arriving without a visa is LEGAL under international law if you claim to be a refugee then you really are a fool. Come on - it's not rocket science, nor is the reason for it. If you are fleeing persecution and threats of torture/death from your government/community then applying within your homeland for a passport/visa would obviously be suicidal. The reason that so many men come alone was also explained before. It's because these families are generally not wealthy and people smugglers don't come cheap so parents can often only afford to send one person. Like all loving parents they value their children's safety over their own so they have to choose which one goes. Since their societies generally value men over women and older children will obviously fare better on their own it is usually the eldest son who goes. Get it now? As for the designer sunglasses and clothes. Where are they? Do you have any photographic evidence to support this apparently ridiculous and irrelevant claim?

    2. If your family suffered constantly from open hostility, discrimination and threats of violence and if you knew that others of your ethnicity/religion/political persuasion had already been imprisoned/tortured/killed for no other reason than that they fitted into one or more of these 3 categories, then you would do everything you could to remove at least 1 of your children from this danger. In this situation sending them on a leaky boat to a foreign land with an alien culture may seem the lesser of 2 evils. I don't know how my friend's parents fled El Salvador but after having their home and children, plus many of their extended family, blown to pieces I don't think they would have been too fussy about the means of their escape. (It is too late at night to ring her now and check but I will try to remember to ask next time I speak to her if you like).

    3. What other countries? Boats don't generally go overland.

    4. Wrong again - that is EXACTLY THE CASE with Tamils from Sri Lanka and Hazaris from Afghanistan, who make up many of our current immigrant detainees. Anyway it is not necessary for a government to openly declare that 1 or more groups of it's citizens are now persona non gratis in their own country in order for people to know that they are endangered. All that is required is for authorities to turn a blind eye towards discrimination and violence against them.

    5. If we allowed them to live and work in the community then we would not have to foot all these bills. We are dealing with refugees in the most expensive way possible, just to pander to xenophobes like yourself. However, given that we insist on locking them up although they have committed no crime (see 1 above if you still don't believe this), then we are obviously depriving them of the means to support themselves so we must do it for them.. You seem incapable of comprehending the background of these people.. After leaving behind their homeland and loved ones in fear of persecution and death, and then enduring a long and scary boat journey in full knowledge that if they survive this they will then be imprisoned on arrival, they are usually in a pretty fragile mental state by the time they reach our detention centres. To then deprive them of a substance to which they are addicted - and make no mistake, nicotine is HIGHLY addictive for most people as you should know - is tantamount to torture. Many smokers in a healthy state of mind find it impossible to give up. Going cold turkey on the basis of someone else's decision when you are traumatised to start with would likely send many people quite literally insane. As for free visits to Luna Park. Everyone, but especially children, need a little fun in their lives. Again, it is not their fault that we refuse to let them earn a living so they could pay their own way.

    6. Since cigarettes would only be available here to those already addicted (since people couldn't buy their own) then suing us for their habit would obviously fail. Are you totally incapable of logical thought? In the example I gave, my friend funded her own addictions. I was simply trying to show just how strong the addiction to nicotine can be by pointing out that she was able to give up speed and heroin but not tobacco.

    7. I agree with you that the taxi driver who punched the old lady deserved jail, but his ethnicity is irrelevant. The courts are often too lenient There have been horrific crimes committed here by people of many nationalities, including Australian. What about the spate of attacks on Indian people a few months back? The likely nationality of those criminals is pretty obviously not foreign! As for checking out the names of such people, a person's last name or even their appearance is no guarantee of where they were born. People of Asian or African ancestry may well still look like a new arrival even though their family has lived here for several generations. My parents anglicised their name by deed poll soon after coming here just after WW2 because ignorant Australians thought that because it was German they must be 'the enemy', and due to marriage my last name is now a very common anglo-saxon one! If new people move next door to you, you know nothing about them either so what's the difference whether they are from another part of Australia or another country? I live in a very ethnically diverse suburb and until this year I was the only Australian in my court. Yet my neighbours - Indians, Turks, Sudanese, Vietnamese and Filipinos - are without fail courteous and helpful. The teenagers opposite (Sudanese) have several times come over to help me weed my garden without ever having been asked and when my letterbox blew over in heavy winds I arrived home from work to find another neighbour (Vietnamese) putting it back up for me! And yet again it needs to be repeated that arriving ANYWHERE as a refugee is LEGAL under international law. Your statement is just plain factually incorrect.

    8. I have visited people in immigration detention centres to provide moral support (and believe me they are very grateful to know that not all Australians are racist and uncaring) and have also given money to organisations that buy dictionaries and other materials to help them learn english whilst imprisoned. I have offered temporary accommodation to recently released detainees if the government offered premises (for which they would pay rent) are far from the few people they know here. So far the offer has not been taken up. I have 2 or 3 spare beds. On this subject, you may not be aware that most boat people end up proving their refugee status and being allowed to stay anyway, which makes the obscene expense of their detention all the more ridiculous.

    9. Since trying to 'do good' is obviously a desirable aim, I wear the badge of 'do gooder' with pride. If you admit that you are a racist, then why did you complain about me calling you just that? As for learning English, it is not something that can be achieved overnight! It is the second hardest language in the world to master due to its lack of consistency in grammar and spelling. Indians, other Asians and many Europeans learn it in school but it still take a while to get really conversant with it until they have been here for a while. A bit of encouragement along the way is a lot more help to them than ridicule. My daughter recently moved to France knowing only primary school French and has experience first hand the discrimination of the natives - the French being as intolerant as many here towards those who do not speak their language fluently. Assimilation should only mean giving up customs that directly conflict with ours - not to do so indicates disrespect There is nothing wrong with different religions and cultures existing side by side. I have found it interesting and educational to attend Chinese and Italian weddings and parties.. Soon I will be going to a Vietnamese/El Salvadorian wedding. Open your mind a bit and enrich your life! The Australian way isn't the only way.

    10. I am all for generally secular education myself but I see nothing wrong with festivals of different nationalities (whether religious or not) being celebrated at schools so long as all groups are given equal prominence. This is the best way to break down the xenophobic barriers put up by people like yourself.. In the words of Nelson Mandela - 'Racism is 100% ignorance'. As for the seperate swimming areas for Muslim women - I actually agree with you on that one. As stated above, I think it is disrespectful of migrants to expect us to change our customs for them. I'm not so sure about toilets however. Every public building I've ever been in has had his and hers in this department. Even if some extremist Muslims have said that they want Sharia law here, that does not mean it is likely to happen. We live in a democracy after all. Can you imagine either of the major political parties supporting this? The halal symbol on foods is to inform Muslims that any animal products they contain were obtained from creatures killed according to Muslim custom (ie not stunned before killing). Despite my Jewish background (they have an equivalent custom - called kosher) I abhore this and have actively campaigned against it for animals killed both here and overseas. But this is not sufficient reason to demonise all Muslims. Like Jews and Christians, they include in their ranks extremists, moderates and all shades inbetween. All cultures are cruel to animals, not just Muslims. If you don't believe that this includes us then go visit a factory farm. As for your last sentence, we are forcing them to be bludgers by imprisoning them. That is not their fault.

  • trix56
    trix56
    Posted on:
    22nd Nov 2011 04:20pm

    Viv says: Bob - boat people are desperately fleeing for their lives. Their governmet /community wants to kill/torture them because of their political persuasion/religion/ethnicity so it would obviously be...

    trix56 says: I am old, sick and on a disabilitty pension.
    The only reason I have a computer is because someone gave it to me. I don't have air conditioning or use heating in winter and most of my food comes with "reduced" stickers on it.
    These people step off the boat and get everything handed to them on a plate. They use up our countries resources, refuse to learn english and only mix with their own.
    Send 'em back!

  • errolsyd
    errolsyd
    Posted on:
    8th Oct 2011 08:44pm

    Bob says: I agree - there is too much political correctness going on and we are foreigners in our own country. The average joe should take a stand and do the opposite to what the minority groups expect eg...

    errolsyd says: Right on Bob well said!

  • chrissi
    chrissi
    Posted on:
    24th Sep 2011 02:23pm

    chrissi says: I hear you viv and empathise with these people but where does it all end and who is footing the bill,if taxpayers money goes into funding 'boat people' its taking from somewhere else in the economy. Charity begins at home, what about our education system, our hospitals our own homeless living on the streets. lets clean our own backyard first.
    and I agree that it is wrong how people can come here and change our history and culture, if they want to come here - assimilate, if they want a muslim country stay where you belong. I recently went on holiday to Dubai and we had to cover our bodies up, not allowed to drink alcohol on the street like dining alfresco and we conformed out of respect.
    Please dont let australia become like the UK!!

  • errolsyd
    errolsyd
    Posted on:
    8th Oct 2011 08:50pm

    chrissi says: I hear you viv and empathise with these people but where does it all end and who is footing the bill,if taxpayers money goes into funding 'boat people' its taking from somewhere else in the...

    errolsyd says: Hear , hear, or Sweden, Denmark, France,Germany. This is OUR country along with all the migrants who have come out here LEGALLY and assimilated into our way of life. Lets talk about the elephant in the room, islamists who want to change Aus into an Islamic state, against my dead body.

  • chrissi
    chrissi
    Posted on:
    9th Oct 2011 02:53pm

    errolsyd says: Hear , hear, or Sweden, Denmark, France,Germany. This is OUR country along with all the migrants who have come out here LEGALLY and assimilated into our way of life. Lets talk about the elephant in...

    chrissi says: yes, errolsyd, but what can we do? we seem unable to vote for or against such things as all political parties are too soft and if you speak out of turn your seen as a racist! are we too apathetic to our detriment (like the UK)? seriously what can we do??? NB; just look at the americans , they love their country and when people emigrate there, they have to swear there aligiance to america above all else, not saying i agree with everthing american but they are very proud of their country and fly the flag in their homes for example to prove it.

  • Viv
    Viv
    Posted on:
    13th Oct 2011 02:48am

    chrissi says: I hear you viv and empathise with these people but where does it all end and who is footing the bill,if taxpayers money goes into funding 'boat people' its taking from somewhere else in the...

    Viv says: Chrissi - If we didn't pander to the xenophobes in society and insist on locking up these poor people who have committed no crime then we wouldn't have to spend such obscene amounts of money on them. They could be given some initial help in finding and paying for accommodation and getting a job, but then they could support themselves. That would free up billions to help with all those other legitimate problems that you mentioned. How can anyone (migrant or otherwise) change our HISTORY? What has been has been! You can omit to tell parts of it, but you can't actually CHANGE it. You are right about respecting the customs of countries that you visit/migrate to and that this should be 2-way. But this should only be an issue if practising a foreign custom here actually CONFLICTS with our way of life. Eg I do not support separate swimming times for Muslim women at our public pools. Nor do I support the wearing of the full head covering (can't remember what it's called, but you know what I mean). Covering the face makes it very difficult to 'read' a person and is quite confronting for others. I have no objection, however, to the hijab as this covers only the hair.

  • Ollie
    Ollie
    Posted on:
    25th Sep 2011 08:24am

    Ollie says: Lilly livered politicians and too many people who have no pride in themselves or their country, won't stand up for our culture and beliefs.
    I personally find it interesting to participate in and often enjoy what other cultures have to offer.... eg.foreign food; Chinese New Year/ Greek weddings/ Italian Festivals; etc. Most of us are quite happy to see these events celebrated within our country and culture.
    Foreigners who 'choose' to be offended by the culture of the country they choose to inhabit, show a lack of respect and gratitude. This is not the type of immigrants we should accept.
    We need to take pride in ourselves and not allow the dumbing down of our own culture. I think that mostly we welcome diversity, which adds a richness to our society, but not when our codes of conduct are criticised and claimed to be offensive. They should learn to tolerate, as we may, some of their customs. No one is right or wrong, just different. Who makes them judge and jury? We choose what we believe, and take no interest or offense in what we choose not to believe, so long as it is not harmful or contrary to our legislative laws.
    I really do think, foreigners should mind their own business, and if they cannot, then go and live somewhere else.

  • g.natz
    g.natz
    Posted on:
    28th Sep 2011 11:37am

    g.natz says: theres nothing wrong in accepting everyone elses culture but they have to learn to respect ours as well. i dont think that putting our religion in the background so as not to offend anyone is the right step. arent we being offended when our culture is being threatened. no offense but other religions have their own schools and noone is stopping them from saying their prayers in those schools or celebrating their own festivals

  • Viv
    Viv
    Posted on:
    13th Oct 2011 02:51am

    g.natz says: theres nothing wrong in accepting everyone elses culture but they have to learn to respect ours as well. i dont think that putting our religion in the background so as not to offend anyone is the...

    Viv says: g.natz - you have hit the nail on the head!

  • Karen
    Karen
    Posted on:
    6th Jun 2012 04:18pm

    Karen says: our whole country has gone mad. people who are fleeing a supposedly oppressed country are well in their rights to bring their oppressive lifestyle to australia, australian kids have too many rights and parents have none and if we wanted a red headed clown with big feet to run the country we should have employed ronald mcdonald. i used to be so proud to be australian

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